Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Behaviour Change Marketing Bootcamp. We're going behind the scenes on an incredible video today, it was led by Stuart King. He's here in the online studio with us, I'm gonna pass over to him to introduce himself. But just to say today's episode is really for anyone out there sitting pondering, how can I capture insight by my audience? How can I deepen insight by my audience? So we can start planning effective behaviour change and planning, effective messaging. So thank you so much for coming to it, because I've seen the video so many times now. And it's so powerful. So there's loads of learning about obesity there, but also about you and how you did it and created it. So please, can we get started by just saying hello. And please imagine no one knows you. So tell us Well, not everything but your background, what you do now, and maybe a little bit about what you want to do?
Yeah, it's only 20 minutes. Yeah. Thank you, Ruth. Hello. Thank you for having me on today. Yeah, I suppose I started. So I've been in public health for almost 20 years, 19 years or so mainly as an intervention designer. But I've also, I've worked in the NHS and obesity lead. I've worked in the local authority as a commissioner. And in Public Health England, I was a senior scientist in the obesity and healthy weight team. And then National Implementation manager in the adults and older people team. So that was doing a lot of engagement work and pulling together. The content for the everybody active every day guidance came out in 2014. And then, alongside all of that, I started an organisation called BeeZee Bodies, which has been going as a programme for for about 17 years. And so we've we've sort of grown that organisation up over that period of time now, we've just become part of a much larger organisation called Maximus, and so does he, but he's now sits within within Maximus. And yeah, I've just been particularly obsessed with applying behavioural science, I have a show called The Real World Behavioural Science, because that's the thing that we're most focused on is like, bringing practical application of behavioural science or any type of evidence base, actually into public health into the public health space. So in a really small nutshell, is what I've been focused on amazing,
so not a lot, then you haven't been very busy. is incredible, because you said it so quickly. And you know, just to grow, grow a company, busybodies is so well respected in our field, it's a massive achievement, as is the podcast, you know, it's so important that we bridge this gap between the research and then the application. And the more we can make it real for people, show them how easy it is to do. And that you don't have to be a behavioural scientist to apply behavioural science. Actually, it is about how you as a practitioner, can use it, learn from it, and test and measure yourself. So it's such such an important gap. Otherwise, what is the point of having all the research it stays within such a narrow field?
Yeah, I think that having BeeZee Bodies was a great outlet for me, because it gave me the freedom to just think of any, you know, if you're working for someone, you can maybe have some freedom to bring new ideas in and whatever. But when you're running your own thing, you can bring ideas from anywhere, and they can be from lots of mad places. But as Rory Sutherland who was just on the show, and I think people talked about him on your show is also but as they've we've, he says that, you know, good ideas can come from all sorts of different places and stuff, there's no, there's no, there's that the opposite of a good idea is can also be a good idea as well. So I think just having a bit of freedom to bring ideas in from all sorts of different places and think about how you can learn from business development fields and marketing and all sorts of other different elements and bring them into public health spaces. Because essentially, behaviours, behaviour and it doesn't matter what you're applying it in, you've just got to sort of think about how people are assimilating information and then and then sort of how to make change happen. Yeah,
absolutely. I think the video really shows that thinking, you know, the wider thinking that you bring, because public health really it does need that, as you say, people are complicated. And the answer doesn't just sit in one discipline is how we bring them all together. And how we can be as creative as possible as well. I mean, we're in an age of massive information overload. But I think what I loved about the video the reason it struck me so hard was because and I think this is why you know, busy bodies is so well respected is because you haven't lost the why. So with the resurgence of behavioural science for a while, that was almost like the goal is to be really good at behavioural science. And you know, behavioural science was the most popular kid at school poor old social model is out the window. But yeah, for me, it's like If we must remember our why, why are we using these tools and remember, actually, we're here to help people and make a really positive difference in their lives. And I think it's being able to say, this worked, or it didn't work and share your methodology. And that's where behavioural science is so powerful. But we must never lose touch of the why. And I think that's what you're glad you said that brilliantly.
I'm glad you said that, right? Because I'm pretty obsessed with Simon Sinek. So why comes through is really important to me, actually. So you said that? Yeah, because it
is, it's like, why are we doing this? At the end of the day? Why are we doing this, and that's what I say to everyone. When they come in our training, I'm like, please, you're not having to go off and do your PhD, you can if you want to. And those people have gone off and done their masters. But this is about the why, you know, your measurement, don't worry if it's behaviour change, you know, your measurement is capturing, why have we helped people and if we have, how much, and how, and also capture how you did it, so other people can do it. And we can share, learn and replicate and grow quicker, and maybe reduce a little bit of the duplication, not saying there's duplication.
I also think though, it's something it's actually something Rory said on our show the other week, if you don't mind, who gets the credit, you can do really amazing things, everything solvable. And I think if you, again, running an organisation, if you're not, there's no ego in it, there can be obviously, but I think if you take the ego out of it, and you just think what's the best thing we can possibly do to empower people around us to do their best work? How can we explore ideas without the need to absolutely sort of know the answer ahead of time and all that type of stuff. These are the types of things I love about running an organisation and leading an organisation to be honest, just being pretty humble in the fact that you just want to solve problems, you just want to sort of work with people to build opportunity for them, help them change behaviours in a positive way. And if you take the ego out of it, it's just brilliant fun, to be honest. So it doesn't feel like work at all. No, that's
fantastic. So take us on to the video, because it's so powerful, please, how did you get there? Why did you think video? And why did you think, you know? How did the need come up?
Well, I do think that we are, I think we were commissioned to do it, to be honest. But we were commissioned to do an insight project and to support Hounslow Borough Council, or London Borough of Hounslow. To look at their whole systems work. So we were doing we were doing an insight project with them. We were doing presentations to stakeholders in groups in in the council and other stakeholders about how you can make you know, the whole system around obesity sort of part of everyone's work. And the video was really something that they asked us for a creative output rather than just a report. We did do a report. But they are the commissioners there are excellent for shout them out. Actually, you got the Varna there, Sterling Ripply Heather and David, who wanted something different, they didn't want just the report, because they know I mean, it helps they've got Sterling Rippy who's a really well respected paper scientist myself. And yeah, absolutely, exactly. She's, I think she's leads the London BSP HN. Forum. So, that helped. I mean, you've got a good, you've got a good customer, if you like for a starting point. And they understand the importance of good communication. That's great. And we, um, that's something we connected on right away.
And I do think that we produced 1600 pages of reports in Insight reports last year, I wouldn't be surprised if 10% or less than 10% was read. I know. You know, the shame of that is some of it was amazing, quite like it was really interesting insights. And I just said, we've got to do something different. We cannot keep just writing these reports, you still have to write the report, by the way, because you've got to get all of that information out somehow. And you've got to organise it. Yeah. But we've got to go one step further and think about the method of communication.
And I think to myself, Why can't communicating important information about insights? And public health information says why can't that actually be enjoyable to consume? That's not necessarily where this video came from. But I do think that and that is something that we're pressing on and I think will be the next big, big frontier in public health how to communicate things better by by thinking about video and other and other forms of communication. That the video that we did for Hounslow was Veena had actually been it was brilliant. I should have shouted her out first really amazing, actually. And we were we were so great. Yeah. We were so grateful to her anyway for telling her story. And she did it with such candour and she was just totally open to sort of, you know, us telling the story. But Veena actually came on one of our programmes about 18 months ago, two years ago, and then volunteered with busy bodies and then started working with busy bodies.
So we know Veena really well. And I just think her story was great. Anyway, she was really vulnerable in that story as well telling us about her mental health issues when she had postnatal depression, et cetera. And from, from my perspective, I wanted to do that justice by really sort of doing a good quality video showcasing how difficult it is for most parents in in the UK, you know, it's it's people feel like they're on their own a lot of the time. And when they see something like Venus video, most people said, it was just so real, it was exactly what I experienced in the mornings. I'm knackered, you know, I'm running from thing to thing to thing. I'm always got the kids nagging at me when we go past the shops and all that type of stuff. So I think that that video, just just as a short snippet into someone's morning helps other people look and say, That's just like me, and I'm not on my own and whatever.
So that's one side of that video. And the Council were really keen to showcase that this is what real real life is like for most people. And then we used it as I put a series of posts on LinkedIn afterwards to just sort of break down some of that, because we recorded that with a, with an agenda really, to showcase from an from a whole system's perspective. What what is the impact someone's existence, their everyday life, their decisions, etc? Yeah, and so that's, that was the purpose of them breaking that down.
And I use all sorts of different models, but couldn't be I just said, Well, that's an obvious one for us to just use and break down and say, well, what's the physical environment? Like, what is the social opportunity that like, you know, how do you how do you sort of get those across, but use somebody else's story to tell that so we put a post together about where the shop is in relation to our house. So that's obviously a physical environment thing. And if the shop was over the road, how would that impact and if the shot was down the road around the corner, so there was no visual trigger? How might that affect it? You know, on the day to day, and I think that when you look at that type of thing in the context of Venna's actual story, you can you can get it you go, yeah, if she wasn't walking past that shop every day with the kids, the visual trigger wouldn't be there. The test of power wouldn't be there. In the shop. Obviously. You can see on the video, there's just endless as a mountain of describes as Willy Wonka's chocolate factory,
is terrifying, because that's so normal. And when you're watching the video, you think, Oh, my God, that's what I see. And I you have to connect the dots. I was like, Oh my God, that should help. Oh, that's the same as my shop. Oh, my gosh, I shops. I just, you know, it was terrifying actually, to see that for me. Because we live next to a Spar. So
when you say spa, spar, the place? Yeah.
But just to just to pause there just set just because anyone who hasn't watched the video, how would you describe the video? As to it sort of? I mean, I for me, it was like an ethnographic walkthrough a day in a day in the life of Veena a mum who lives in Hounslow.
Do you describe it? And I mean, that doesn't really that. Yeah, pretty much what it is. It's an ethnographic video of life.
Yeah. And the video follows her. So it's just four minutes long, but it follows her through getting up the school run. And then her day with her dog and like you say, habits, things that you know, you do, perhaps semi subconsciously, you know, you know, perhaps you need to keep walking past but actually, when you've watched a video and you realise Actually, she's just done like hours of work in 20 minutes with the kids and everything.
Well, the other thing is, take the dog for an exam. Oh, yeah, he he was lovely, right. But the dog is a good example of a dog in fact, is a good example of an external trigger. It's an external motivator to go for a walk, for example, and that's how she saw it. And she just happened to have on her doorstep. Brilliant Park. I never knew it was there. But there's a lovely park in houseboats goes on for miles, you could be in the middle of the countryside in the middle of Hounslow, which was lovely. But not everyone has that. So you know it, there's got the trigger, they've got the guilt of not walking the dog, but they can only walk around the block because there's no decent play area and whatever nearby. Yeah,
everyone we go the dog. Why is it about dogs that brings up everyone's soft side?
Well, everyone loves dogs that they wouldn't everyone loves dogs, but I do I love dogs more than anything. But yeah, these are just examples, though, from that video that just come out naturally. And another one that we did was we made a point of view. So from so it's good that you described as an ethnographic thing because we actually did a bit of a qualitative sort of analysis around that as well. We were saying ethnographically speaking.
What are you being exposed to on a daily basis without necessarily noticing? So we counted all of the different adverts that there must have been a push by McDonald's on this steakhouse burger or whatever. And there was another advert that we saw a lot of chicken, chicken sandwich type sort of thing or whatever. And it was, there was a new type of Cadbury's chocolate out. And so those three adverts, we saw 27 times on that walk 27 adverts on that short for those three products? I'm not sure what, wow. All right. That's not that's not the end of the world. But you know, if we're building up a picture of how are people being influenced? Well, they're being influenced, but I'm bombarded in every single way. And then you go past, I think we went past about 14 Different takeaways, in this matter, gambling shops, lots of shut shops and stuff, as well as shops that were closed down. So once you start, and lots of lots of litter on the floor, and all that type of stuff, which, you know, no disrespect to Hounslow Borough Council for their litter picking or whatever, but they do need to do a little bit of work in some of the areas we work in around and all of that we were trying to build up a picture of like, if you're living in that environment, the choices that you have available to you are limited. Yes. And you have to work harder to make good choices. You know, we work in family weight management, amongst other things. If you want to make good choices, you have to work harder to do that. It's not the default. And the more the more berries you then have on top we all know this really, but more various you have on top than the less choice you actually have. It's it's about life chances versus choices. Yeah.
i That's massive point of learning. I think that was what really came out for me. Because from a couple of things, a marketing perspective. One is how can I marketing ever combat the commercial consumer side? I mean, sometimes I just think, why did we bother, although I've never not bother. But you know, it does feel utterly overwhelming when you hear 27 touch points that they will have planned. So expertly, you know, it's not by accident. But then also, marketing. For me. One of the reasons, one of the things that worries me sometimes is that we can do the blame game accidentally.
So we're just telling people to make better choices and have these expectations about what people should be doing. And everything you've just said about the lived environment and the wider environment, the external triggers the pressures, and actually the opportunities that people have that gets forgotten. And I think we can wide and health inequalities, we can actually be triggering a lot more, not necessarily shame, but you know, too much pressure on the people who have the least who have the biggest hill to climb. And we don't respect the sheer amount of resilience it takes to walk past those 27 adverts and walk past that shop and change, you know, make these sort of habit based changes when one when they're so ingrained, but to when you say actually, it's, there's so much of the environment, you know, the odds are stacked against people. And I think when because I'm obviously in marketing, it's like, sometimes it's really good for the marketer to remember that they are not going to solve this problem, that we are part of a bigger systems approach. And we need to be connecting in with the bigger systems and, you know, programmes like yours, but also there's advertising bans. Now they're they're happening, aren't they on a bigger scale?
Yeah, I mean, they actually got walked back a little bit, I think last year, but they I don't actually know where they are today. I should have checked that out beforehand. But those are the types of things that make a huge difference, but but only in their individual sort of areas. And it like you say it's a whole system response that's needed. And the problem with that is, and I've worked in national government, local government have supplied services to lots of different local authorities over the years.
The problem with that is there's a limited amount of money to spend and, and we seem to have to know, the absolute contribution of everything that we do, which makes sense, because you've got to understand what the return on investment is like, is actually worth doing that versus that in a in a resource. Scarce environment. But but in reality, we're only really going to solve this problem if if politicians and people or local level including communities are brave enough to sort of just say, we need to do everything, we need to do lots of different things at once. And we're not going to know the absolute contribution of every single part of this Yeah, to the to the end result. That that takes courage. And that takes that takes really brave people in positions of power. And, you know, we often see that things happen in political cycles because people are interested in reelection, etc, etc.
So, yeah, we need a 20 to 30 year response that is that is just pushing out a whole systems approach to changing each little thing and I talk about it marginal gains quite a lot, you know, like the British Cycling Team is a good example of that through Dave Brailsford and all the gold medals, we've won. And I've talked about this in various tiny tweaks, exactly. But they're these 1%. If you can improve 50 things by 1%, the results start to become exponential. And one of the things that he describes is this notion of when they did that in their team, they had this contagious enthusiasm, they called it which I loved. Because the more people saw the impact of these tiny things, they couldn't tell the exact contribution of low drag pain on the bike or using their own cleaners in a hotel room when they go or the cuts that they used to take so that everyone slept in the same bed every night with the same stuff washed on the bus every day with all these tiny, tiny tweaks, they couldn't tell what exact contribution they made.
But it all made a contribution to an overall improvement where we went from winning zero medals, or one medal to almost all the medals, you know, on all the gold medals, 2012 and 2008. So that's the type of thing that I think people do get when you look at the marginal gains thing, and you look at the success of something like the British Cycling Team and other sports teams, then you start to think, yeah, if we could just do that, that would be great. But there's lots of different groups, there's lots of different communities, there's different cultures to take into account. People are, you know, time poor, they're resource poor. So these things aren't on the top of their list. And so it becomes a really difficult I'm not saying it's an easy thing to solve, but I do know that the thing that will sell that will be courage more than anything else from from political leaders.
Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great way of bringing it together, Stuart, because I think, like you say, let us a courage. But also, I think you said about the community voice there. I think that's so so important, because I think it's more, it's as important to have OIC sort of not a cultural revolution. But I think the community voice is just so needed here that enough is enough, especially as parents with looking at childhood obesity, when do we say enough is enough? And I was looking at some amazing work that's been done in Kings Cross around their lived environment and the redesign. And, you know, like you say, there's lots of other levers, and the solution is going to come from so many other places, as well. Sure. And so, yeah, it's something about, like you say, Go going, setting that vision and going for it. And being really solution focused, because I can imagine when they were going for their gold medals, they weren't focusing on the problem. So I guess they weren't because they were fixing it. But the vision, the what's in everyone's head is let's win, Let's achieve this. Let's do this. And then let's make these changes in order to get there we know all know where we're going to. And for me, that's the bit that's really missing. Where are we going to what's the vision that can bring, you know, the community together? And what what does that look like? And then so we can all have like that gold medal moment where we go, right, we're all working in our own little bit towards this. That would just be incredible. And I think that's like you say, the politicians, well, can they ever given us I don't know, if sometimes I just think health shouldn't be a political football, it's so frustrating.
You're totally right. It's gonna be communities, there's not enough money in a system to buy your way out of the problems that we're facing in terms of the mental health problems, the physical health problems, obesity, those types of things, diabetes, etc. If we are really going to make strides forward, it will be through communities. And if we're going to do that through communities, then we have to, we have to listen to them, we have to be in them. And one of the questions that really inspirational sort of speaking, we worked with with with him, Cormac Russell said to me once was how much time do you spend in meetings, talking about people, versus how much time you spend in communities talking to people. And I've asked that now in every, every political space I go, every talk that I give, and the sort of slightly embarrassed look on everyone's face tells me that there's a lot of people that are doing their jobs, they're working away very hard and whatever else. But actually, are we actually connected to the people in communities? Do we really know what it's like for them living in those areas? Do we get their voice out genuinely have we got the systems to be able to pull those voices into our, into our spaces and then work with them alongside them to make sure that they are driving the change in those communities?
And the problem and there's lots of buzzwords around now one of them being CO production that you hear it everywhere? ABCD and other one asset based community development? Yes, yeah, everyone wants it, but no one knows how to make it work in reality, right. But one of the problems with CO production in my view, I won't go on a rant. Oh no. I that you. The problem with it most of the time is it's not CO production, it's consultation. And it's the tick boxes. And true CO production. When we did we did, we did a project that well when we were doing CO production. But actually, we had to redefine it. Because it turned out that because we had a set period of time, we had to deliver something in, we had to deliver towards a pre stated goal of you know, engaging certain number of people in weight management services, whatever it was, that's not CO production, you have to have the latitude to be able to listen to what people say, and then work with what they say. And that might mean you're not doing the thing that you thought you'd be doing at the beginning. But that's what true CO production is. That's what true community work is. And that takes, you know, it long term investments in communities, they're sick of being over, consulted, not listened to. And then a new agenda comes along and they get dropped. They're sick of it. So we've got to get to the point where we're not just short term, going to speak into communities trying to get out their story, and then not doing it justice, not actually doing what's right by them and and acting with them alongside them to sort of make change happen. And there are places that that is happening, but it's few and far between. And it's really difficult. And it requires deep thinking and a lot of effort and time. Yeah,
you're right. And that actually comes back to the word courage, again, the leaders, I've got to give the permission to allow people to not know the answer before they go and talk to people. Sure, you've got to say it's okay. Not that you don't know, we do that in our scoping. And actually, when social marketing first came out, and the childhood obesity, the very beginning of change for life, I don't know if you remember, they went back and they redid it all. They wrote their policy, and then we're like, oh, this is not good. Let's take a social marketing approach. And that the mantra was, if you know the answer, then it's not social marketing, because social marketing interventions are born out of the scoping phase, which is when you establish what people need one, and you know, the best way to really get to the solution. So if you know what it is you want, then like you say, this is just more about delivery and tip boxing. And we said all the time, my thing is, I try and differentiate between understanding your service users and your non service users. Because I think that we can speak to our service users a lot. But it's quite a small pool, and you get that kind of group think, and we're not so good at speaking to people that aren't already engaged in patient forums or going along to community groups. And we don't take that extra step. And we do a lot of I mean, our videos, we don't release our videos. So we do a lot of online qualitative research with non service users. Mostly, we do it online, because most of our guys are carers, they can't leave the house might have disabilities. So we do, we do it online, either on their own in groups, but our permissions are set. So we don't share it wider than with the commissioner. But it's our way of getting their voice at least in with the decision making. But even then, it's not enough because the power is still sitting it with an external body. And it's actually it's not an equal playing field, that it's still like parent child almost a little bit. So, yeah, like you say, work, it needs to be a lot more equal.
Well, there's there's a couple of books that sort of describe it, there's the spirit level, which is an interesting book, to read about sort of equality and power. And then another one is I wasn't gonna talk about this, but you reminded me of it the art, I think it's the power of giving away power or something along those lines, I will check that for you. But it's something like the art of giving away power or something like that. And it's really worth reading. It's not from public health or anything along those lines. It's about status and power and, and how community development really, really comes about and it is, in genuinely sharing power is a scary and difficult thing to do. And from what you know, everything that you said is completely right. But it's this notion of how you give away how you I say give away power you shouldn't eat. It's not really yours to give away, but it does exist, there are power dynamics, and we have to recognise them and then be able to, and I think communities are the places that we should be sharing it with communities are the places that should be able to take that that power, because those are going to be the the place in which real change can happen. And I have a question, which is why? Why can't we get communities to do that right now? Why don't we engage certain communities and we do others? And the answer is trust. And trust is incredibly difficult to build. It takes a long time to build. And I think if we were more intentional about trust and understood what trust is trust is made up of four components, intent, integrity, competence, and results. And you have to communicate all of those, if you're working in communities, they need to feel that you have the right intent, they need to see your integrity, you need to deliver on what you say you're going to, and you need to demonstrate that you can do that competently. And that's how you unless in every relationship, by the way, but this is in communities, it's even more important. And then that's why you need to work alongside lots of organisations who already have trust in those in those in those areas. And you have to invest for the long term, because trust comes in on a donkey and goes out on a rocket ship. If you just don't deliver one time, you know, that's, that's as quickly as it can go. It's
a great analogy there. Oh, so we started off on the video, and now we've gone? No, I think it's brilliant, I would think. Yeah, no, thank you so insightful or your comments, thank you so much. And just for anyone who's listening, I'd really just like to point out that when Stuart is talking, when we were talking about the video, and your work and your research, you will automatically popping things within COM-B. And I just want to flag that because it was you said it also naturally. And I think that's just where we can all get to, we can all literally start using things even as prompt tools just to widen and broaden our own thinking and deepen our own understanding. So if you anyone who's listening, but go back to listen to that, but I'll tease that out as well. I think someone somewhere else, you're just doing it so naturally. And I just think that's such a on the ladder towards this trust and change. That's kind of one of our first skill sets that we can really nail something that we can control and do. Just yeah, developing our own empathy skills. So you've been amazing guests. Thank you so so much, I will hook up all of those books that you've mentioned. And the day in the life video with VENA thank you so much for you now. And also we do normally finish asking our guests for recommendation of one book that changed their life or one book that you'd say everyone must read. You've already given us two. So it's a bit harder. But is there one that you would say you must read this? Is there a book that you would give to anyone at the moment?
I gift books all the time? Because I really believe in that I just think books are if you're not learning from someone's best effort pulling all their best ideas together, where are you getting your ideas are? One book? Yeah, I probably I'd say probably. It depends on what you're trying to achieve. To be honest, I am known for giving out book recommendations. But I'd say Rebel Ideas I talk about a lot, because I think it's just a great book by Matthew Syed says blackbox thinking actually, but that just really demonstrates the value of diversity and beyond diversity for diversity sake, like the genuine science behind good ideas coming together and sort of learning from each other. But can I mentioned a couple of others anyway, because I just, it really made a big difference to me. And because you're in marketing, Linchpin by Seth Godin really affected me early, that was one of my first introductions to lots of different sort of concepts in marketing. Spirit of Kaizen is another one, which about continuous improvement from the Japanese of Art of Kaizen. And the last one is a really odd choice. But I it really affected me because it made me think deeply about the importance of different people in an organisation. That's Loonshots, that I have to tell you this. I didn't love the book, to be honest, I liked it. I didn't love it. But the concept of having big ideas and how they become business, as usual, is a really interesting thing. Because we, there's loads of ideas in the world. There's lots of, you know, whole systems, obesity is one of them. But how do you turn that into something, you need this sort of trapped, you need someone who buys into a vision, and then you need that person that can translate that vision for what they call the army. So the army can actually not reject the idea out of hand and make it work on a day to day basis. So but just across the board, I think for putting ideas into practice diversity, thinking about communication, and then thinking about how to turn them into realistic real world things.
Say the name again. Loon shots, loon shots and who's the author loon shots?
I should have looked it up. But no,
I'll put it in the loon shots loon shots. Yes. Okay. Because, loon L O N brilliant. Yeah, that's really interesting. Because that's summarised exactly what we said you need your vision and then to mobilise your army. And video, I have to say, Yeah, prompted all this thinking. So thank you so much for doing that works. Absolutely. Fantastic. And thank you for coming on the podcast today.
No worries. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
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